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Non-CTIS CV-Axle solution

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  • Non-CTIS CV-Axle solution

    Ok, adding my notes from a separate post, and short description to build an axle all on your own, without CTIS capability (but really, some precision drilling and a tap could fix this.)

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    Parts used: Duralast Gold B9337N & Duralast Gold B11078N.

    Some things I learned. The inner cup looks to be custom made. Not only were their no part numbers, but the cup housing shattered into three pieces, left the inner axle shaft in the differential. Upon removing that, I can tell two things - the shaft was welded to a plate, tig, but by hand (not a machine "even" weld), AND the shaft-place was welded to the cup by someone who doesn't do structural welding - Edges weren't beveled, no penetration in the weld to the base metal of either the shaft-plate, or the cup. Basically, it looks like I was paid to weld it. I think this is why we can't find the inner cups anywhere; I'm gonna put my speculation hat on and say that GD took the liberty to make this a "gotta come back to me" part.

    I had a good discussion with RAXLES guy, Kevin Y., on Friday morning (02Feb2022, for the historical record.) After some good chatting, he informed me that his business focus has always been on smaller things like the AUDIs and VWs (matches his website.) When I asked how he built the growler axles, he informed me that he "got a call from a guy he didn't know, was asked to build the axles to a certain spec and provided the inner cups to build around." He apparently didn't know the parts were for a gov't vehicle until after he was already producing them - I didn't get into his business, but very likely after he'd built a few, quoted a price for bulk, and was locked in. This tends to be how Gov't Prime contractors do their business with subcontractors; if they knew up front what the component was for, they might be inclined to bump up price, or offer services to a competitor. Anyway, the important part here, was he can't build new axles because he never knew source of supply for the inner cups and shafts, sounds like that part was provided to him. He's sttill able to rebuild them, but as previously stated, if the outer is trash, he likely can't get you moving.

    Something of note: The CAGE & BALL BEARING method used on the inner CV seems to be an oddball solution - most of the solutions I've stumbled on/researching only use that cage model for the outer CV. This is likely so they could get a steeper axle angle, but also seems to be against best industry practice. Potentially I'm only looking at a subset of solutions, so take that for what it is.

    Ok, here's what I've (unsuccessfully) tried today:

    Bought an EXPLORER rear axle, Cardone 66-2194. Obviously too long, but was able to confirm the INNER CV CUP was the correct one. Outer was not correct (didn't expect it to be.) Removed inner boot and disassembled. This one uses the three-wheel type (vice cage and ball bearing.) Pulled inner race off intermediate shaft end, tried it on the OE Growler axle, was too small. Took some measurements, and it looks like the the outer of the OE is full diameter of shaft. I didn't count, but i think 27 or 28 splines. Nothing special to get the inner cup off, boot was only thing keeping it from hyper extending and sliding off.

    Bought an Expedition front driver cv axle (2003, but it's in a window of ranges.) This was an Autozone part, B9337N. Outer is a perfect fit for the OE. Inner is the flange type and not immediately a solution. Inner is also the three wheel type like the Cardone (again, not ball/cage.) Wishful thinking, I tried the cardone cup slide over the Duralast race, and their was substantial play. I then disassembled, removed inner race (i'm assuming that's it's name) from intermediate shaft, and tried to put the Cardone Inner cup on there, NO GO. wouldn't fit over the end of the axle to get to the splines, so it feels like it's too small (I considered cutting the end off, but i think the spline count was off as well.) LENGTH of this one *could* be perfect if I could find a way to make the inner flange an inner stub shaft. **Warning, I had to rubber hammer the flange cup off. Didn't Damage anything, but it wasn't a slide off**

    So here's where I am. I've taken the OE Inner stub shaft-plate that was left undamaged in my Diff, ground all the crap weld off that didn't actually penetrate the metal, and I think i can use it. I then punched the end cap out of the Duralast Flange type Inner CV, and the hole that is left is EXACTLY the same diameter as the OE Inner stub shaft-plate. SO, I'm going to take these to a welder and see if this could be welded. The Flange Cup looks like Stainless, and the Stub shaft isn't stainless (or rusting), so I need a qualified welder to make this assessment, since it's gonna take all the rotating force.


    Here's the update to reflect the pictures above:


    I bought the 2009-2019 F150 IFS Driver Side CV Axle, Duralast Gold B11078N. This model shifted to a Stub-Cup, vice flange type (I may be off on the years a little, but I used 2011 as my truck date ref. to Autozone folks.) I combined this with the Duralast Gold B9337N. The B9337N Outer AND Shaft were identical in length to the OE solution, intermediate shaft diameter was the same as well. HOWEVER, the spline count on the OE Intermediate shaft did not match the Duralast (or any other) intermediate shaft spline counts/diameter. I needed to re-use the boot from B11078N, due to the dimpled cup design of the flange on B9337N, otherwise this would have been a non-messy solution. Overall length of my new one is 25 5/8", looks like maybe 1/8" shorter than the OE (I'll live with it.)

    What I didn't try, but could very well work, would be using the OUTER CV CUP, bearings, but reusing the B9337N outer CV end bearing race (the part attached to the intermediate shaft.)

    Finally, the Intermediate shaft utilized in the End Product has the part number FD-8023 / 201041. If I ever break this one (**When), I'm going to come back here and see if anyone researched this and hopefully find my own post telling me what part i need. I just looked, and the intermediate shaft on B11078N part FD-8172, so not an identical match, but same splines on inner side as FD-8023, same length from what i can tell, and the tapers seem to match under the boot.

    Ok, that's where I'm at. As I've already deleted CTIS, I've solved for my equation - three body problem is for a later day. Hope to hear if anyone has questions. ***IF SOMEONE CAN TELL ME HOW TO REMOVE THE OUTER CV CUP FROM INTERMEDIATE SHAFT I'LL COMPARE THE B11078N PART TO THE OE***

    I sure hope this helps someone, or me at a later time when i don't remember...

    J

    J
    Pedigree: April 2010 build,SN: LSV118, RN: 626540, revisions unknown but doubtful...my girl looks like she was forgotten out back behind the barn...

  • #2
    Double-post
    Last edited by W427; 02-09-2022, 11:16 AM.

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    • #3
      Awesome detailed report of findings this far! Info like this will be very useful to others now or someday. Thanks! 💯

      Hard to tell from the photos - were your axle shafts the later full-diameter type (full length of shaft same diameter), or were they the original tapered type (center of shaft smaller than spline areas)?

      Any chance you measured the overall length of the axle shafts? Apparently they are different.

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      • #4
        I made up 4 of the CV axles using equivalent 8 - CV axles I obtained from Rockauto. The 2 ends fit perfectly into the differential and wheel hub. Unfortunately, the axle shafts are to short causing the rollers at the differential end to ride too close to the end of the housing. This also appears to be the problem with the factory CV axles. At first glance, the made up axles appear to be approximately 1 1/2" to short and the factory axles 1" to short. I suspect that this is the root problem with the growler CV axles.

        I will cut one of the shafts in half from both the factory and non-CTIS axles to determine the correct axle length. I found a company in Meridian, Idaho that will make hardened axle shafts to ones specifications.

        I will create a new post when I determine the correct axle lengths.

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        • #5
          On the later axle shafts I have run into, the shaft is longer and they also made the spline on the inboard end of the shaft longer to allow the race to be able to slide on the shaft so that it slides and doesn’t bind.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Golconda Growlers View Post
            I will cut one of the shafts in half from both the factory and non-CTIS axles to determine the correct axle length.
            There are a number of videos online for how to measure axle shaft length that may be helpful. The concept is that their shortest length is when the axles are parallel to the ground (straight line from one outer hub, through the diff center, to the other outer hub), and distance increases as suspension moves up or down from there. The axle must fit the shortest point of clearance.

            So, it should be a simple matter of removing the shaft, setting the vehicle and axles level, and measuring from the bottom of the outer cup to the bottom of the inner cup. Subtract a bit for clearance, and that's your max shaft length. Watch some videos and verify the concepts before proceeding, but this should provide the maximum length the shafts could be to fit the space available. Due to production tolerances, suspension geometry, or chassis damage, this length may vary from one position or vehicle to another. If I had unlimited time, I would remove all four shafts and measure for the shortest one.

            Based on measurements by others and some assumptions, I found inexpensive long-spline racing shafts online in this post: ITV racing axles I do not need axles, so I have not been able to try these yet, but might get a chance in a couple weeks. If you get good measurements, please post whatever you find. Thanks!

            [EDIT] I will repeat here that the axles I found were based on old shafts and measurements I did not make, of existing axle shaft lengths. This is not the correct way to determine correct length, so those axles could be perfect, or too long (we can trim) or short (we can't stretch them). We need more info!
            Last edited by W427; 05-11-2022, 08:43 AM. Reason: emphasis for correct way to measure

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