Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Front Steering Update

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Front Steering Update

    Growler Front Steering - this is what we know - April 2020

    The Growler is fitted with power assisted Rack and Pinion steering. The system comprises of a servo unit (servo), hydraulic assist cylinder (cylinder) and mechanical rack and pinion (rack). A hydraulic pump driven by the engine, supplies fluid to both front and rear steering, and the HydroBoost brake unit. (The hydraulic pump is visible in the photo 2 below directly under and behind the red/black servo unit).

    Two distinctly different front steering systems were fitted to Growlers, 'BRT' and 'Sweet' - note that components are not interchangeable.

    BRT Steering System
    This was a combination of Woodward Servo mounted on the steering column , engine side of firewall with BRT cylinder and BRT Rack. Notable for its single rod cylinder in combination with the Woodward "adjustable offset" servo. The adjustable servo compensated for the hydraulic pressure offset caused by the single piston rod. The company BRT no longer exists, with Appleton Rack & Pinion able to support some components. Woodward Steering are able to support the servo as required.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	340.JPG
Views:	315
Size:	1.72 MB
ID:	2656Click image for larger version

Name:	hydraulic pump.jpg
Views:	354
Size:	51.3 KB
ID:	2658


    The USMC may have encountered difficulties with the BRT system, or possibly the lack of ongoing spares prompting them to change to the Sweet system.The BRT cylinder shown below, removed from my M1163, has sheared off the lower half of its mounting bracket, normally held in place with two socket head cap screws securely wired together (barely visible in photo above), also destroyed the mounting ring that held the opposite end in place. This was probably due to severe wheel shock being passed on to the steering system.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	376.JPG
Views:	324
Size:	2.03 MB
ID:	2657


    Sweet Manufacturing Steering System
    The second steering system fitted to Growlers was an all Sweet Manufacturing combination of servo, cylinder and rack. This system employed a dual piston cylinder with matching non-adjustable servo unit solidly mounted to the Sweet rack. The Growler "I-cubed" upgrade package included a full replacement Sweet Manufacturing Combo - servo cylinder and rack. Typically, Growlers fitted with flush mounted LED headlights, will have the Sweet steering fitted.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	sweet hyd steering.jpg
Views:	517
Size:	42.6 KB
ID:	2654


    USMC "I-cubed" upgrade kit - containing the Sweet Manf. steering components, servo and cyl/rack unit.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	sweet 2.jpg
Views:	357
Size:	50.9 KB
ID:	2655
    Skyhawk

  • #2
    Have you seen these upgraded kits anywhere?

    Comment


    • #3
      @Terra They were only included in the large wooden crates that were sold with some Growlers, Crate is known as the I cubed upgrade
      Skyhawk

      Comment


      • #4
        I have mentioned this before, mine has a horrible turning radius, even with suspension at max. Have you noticed an improved turning radius with one kit vs another? Or am I being too picky?

        I just want to be able to turn right at a stop sign without doing a three point turn.

        Comment


        • #5
          You either have an issue with your steering, or you have different expectations. In my PM, I have no issue doing a U-turn on a 2-lane road, or any other "normal" driving maneuver you'd do in a Jeep or similar. It turns tighter than my wife's old XJS.😜 A 2010 F-150 Regular Cab pickup with a short bed (shortest version) has a curb-to-curb turning circle of 41.7 feet.

          LSVs are not as tight as PMs with their long wheelbase, but below is the turn radius from the TM so you can check yours for turning performance in the local parking lot. If it tests in-spec, that's what you get. If not, you can be relieved to know it should be something that you can fix. 😎

          Click image for larger version  Name:	Turn_radius.png Views:	0 Size:	14.6 KB ID:	3016
          W427
          Senior Member
          Last edited by W427; 05-07-2020, 01:33 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            nice work on the specs. that takes all of the guess work out!!!

            thanks,
            dave

            Comment


            • #7
              The company BRT no longer exists, with Appleton Rack & Pinion able to support some components. Woodward Steering are able to support the servo as required.[/FONT]



              The USMC may have encountered difficulties with the BRT system, or possibly the lack of ongoing spares prompting them to change to the Sweet system.The BRT cylinder shown below, removed from my M1163, has sheared off the lower half of its mounting bracket, normally held in place with two socket head cap screws securely wired together (barely visible in photo above), also destroyed the mounting ring that held the opposite end in place. This was probably due to severe wheel shock being passed on to the steering system.

              Click image for larger version

Name:	376.JPG
Views:	324
Size:	2.03 MB
ID:	2657

              Update from Appleton Rack & Pinion- Just had the hydraulic cylinder repaired by them great people and great service. They sent the following information below:

              ANYONE THAT HAS AN APPLETON OR BRT, PLEASE HAVE THEM COMMUNICATE VIA EMAIL FOR PRODUCT,THEN CALL WITH A CC# FOR SAFTY. OUR COMPUTERS AND PHONES ARE ON ROUTERS, WHICH ARE PRACTICLY HACK PROOF. PLUS I CHANGE PASSCODES VERY OFTEN. THX, BETH APPLETON RACK & PINION




              Skyhawk

              Comment


              • #8
                Did anyone take advantage of this? Did it make a difference?

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have a Growler with the BRT System and had the hydraulic cylinder rebuilt by Appleton it fixed the major leak that was coming from the seal on the cylinder, I have also had the servo unit out and I replaced the seal on the top where it peaks through the firewall and connects to the steering wheel as that was also leaking. Each time I have bled the system of air by lifting the front end up and turning the wheels from limit to limit while motors off and doing the same with the motor running to purge the air from the system, I have gotten very close to getting rid of the jerky steering issue both times but it keeps coming back. Fixing the servo leak and getting the hydraulic cylinder repaired helped a lot to make it better and even drivable for short periods of time. But somewhere its still sucking air into the system. I have searched from front to back for a leaky hose or a damp connector and I cant find anything. Any ideas? I have thought about trying to bleed the Hydrobooster ( possible air trapped in the spool valve?) but the brakes seem fine. and stepping on the brake pedal while turning the wheels back and forth doesn't make any difference in the jerky motion. Let me know if you guys think of something I might have missed.

                  Thanks,
                  NorthWind529
                  Junior Member
                  Last edited by NorthWind529; 08-06-2020, 12:34 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    NorthWind529
                    Junior Member
                    NorthWind529 Hi and welcome to the forum. Great work so far. Not sure if this will help but the rear steering uses the same hydraulics any chance this is contributing to your fault?
                    Paul
                    Skyhawk

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks and I don't think so I have pulled all the covers off and checked the lines running through and under the body to the rear steering and didn't see anything leaking, and with the welds still on the rear I cant turn the wheels to push fluid through them. Just now I replaced the hoses that run between the Hydrobooster, Power Steering Res, and the Hydraulic Filter, cuz they looked a bit worn, and trying to bleed the air out of the system again. I noticed now that I can turn the steering wheel from limit to limit slowly and it doesn't jerk but if I do it too quickly it does, also when I step on the brake it stops the jerking movement, and now I can hear a gushing sound when I turn the wheel with the motor off. More air.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        NorthWind529
                        Junior Member
                        NorthWind529, thinking out-loud — you might check your fluid reservoir before and after bleeding to compare if the level increases. This would indicate no fluid leaks, and only air induction. As air enters the system, hypothetically the displaced fluid volume would push into the res. Induction of this type could certainly be negative-pressure locations such as the hydraulic return pump entry and res fittings, though other locations could allow air to pass seals or fittings (which can act like a venturi) under certain conditions. Have you flushed all of your old fluid out? I've used commercial power steering fluid and ISO 32 AW hydraulic oil.

                        I noticed one of my PMs has thin clear coating on some line connections (like a "paintable" silicone or clear Plasti-Dip) that were presumably to find or stop air leaks like this. I've used globs of grease on suspect or sucking fittings (like brake bleed valves) to temporarily stop or delay air entry and when diagnosing stuff like this in the past. Just ideas. Let us know how you get along, and good luck! David

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          OK thanks Ill let you know what I find today, as far as checking the fluid reservoir the way I'm bleeding air out of the system is by leaving the fluid reservoir open while turning the wheel and watching the levels and looking for air bubbles. Is there a bleeder valve I'm missing for the PS? As far as flushing old fluid out the system it would barely hold any before repairing the major leak on the hydraulic cylinder so I'm fairly certain most of the fluid in the system is new, using Napa brand commercial PS fluid. Thanks for the tip on the grease ill use some to see if I can narrow anything down.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So I greased up most of the lines connections, filled the PS res 3/4 full, and was turning the wheel back and forth and the PS res was filling more and more. I thought it was an air bubble working up but I noticed if I turned then held the steering wheel at its limit the res level would slowly go down then the fluid would ripple and gurgle. the more I turned the wheel and held the more the res would fill up till the fluid over flowed. I didn't see any air bubbles coming up, just gurgling fluid then a slow drop in fluid level. I'm not sure if the air is coming up, If I'm sucking more air in the systems and that's causing the fluid level to rise, or if the rise then drop in fluid level is the air bubble moving then stopping and fluid going around it. Any thoughts?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              First for housekeeping, we are technically "hi-jacking" this thread, and I would suggest making a new thread ("Hydraulic air leak" or something) for any additional conversation on your specific issue. This way we don't further contaminate this thread's original intent of Steering Update, and results are easily searchable by others. 😉 Quote the pertinent posts to the new thread for continuity.

                              Well, two random thoughts, that your grease is not sealing air at any of those points (so perhaps the leak is not at those points), and if no air is coming-up in the res, the air may be entering at a point it does not circulate to the res. Perhaps this means it may be in a location that is stagnant (dead-end) or otherwise not circulating. Any signs of air in the res fluid at all? No micro bubbles, color/clarity change or foaming, etc? I find it perplexing that you indicate the air may be purged initially (?), but new air does not show-up at the res. Hmm.

                              BTW, you may consider bypassing the rear-steer if you do not intend to re-enable rear-steer, but want to avoid flushing and purging that section of the hydraulic circuit. The bypass may preferably be up where the rear-steer lines connect (or plugs in that case), rather than a hose back at the cylinder, as no flushing circulation would then be required to clear the lines. More food for thought. David

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X